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 Fans Vs. Fam

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Michelle

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PostSubject: Fans Vs. Fam   Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:19 pm

[Hey, I feel this is a controversial/sensitive topic; however, since this board has a Jackson family section I went ahead and put it here. Feel free to move it, Rhea, if you deem it necessary!]

First, let me start by saying that I'm glad that this board seems to have a great group of "sound-minded" members - or whatever you'd like to call it, haha! - and can "handle" certain topics in the fandom like sensible and reasonable adults. We all know there are a lot of issues around and about Michael and many boards have taken measures to sort of mitigate discussions. On one hand, I can see this as totally necessary. Boards need certain rules in order to retain order and the like. On the other hand, I sometimes think particular ones go too far and others don't go far enough. All that being said, I'd like to get other peoples opinions about this whole war between the Jackson Family and the Jackson fans. I don't think I should really call it a war between them. It seems to just be a fan vs. fan sort of thing actually: fans who support the family versus those who don't. And this has certainly been taken to extremes, in my opinion.

I kind of wonder if this has to do with group-think more than anything else.

I think it's perfectly fine for fans to discuss (and yes, criticize in some cases) the actions or statements made by Jackson family members. There's a lot I don't agree with and just sometimes wonder "what the hell is going on there?" So, I think that's pretty reasonable. I mean, Joe Jackson.... Shocked Haha! Anyways, I'm actually more appalled by what I'd categorize as general "hate" toward the family. And some of it, I'd call insane and downright crazy. I mean, you have fans contacting people around the family; saying Katherine is "pimping out" MJ's kids; that Paris is revealing too much of herself; that the kids are in "danger" and should be removed from Katherine's care (when the last time I checked, those kids look GREAT and happy and healthy and normal to me, as much as they could possibly be);or fans contacting people that testified in the Murray trial and sending them flowers (which, I mean, is okay...I guess...um...but....); and tweeting the children about their own relatives, and the list goes on and on.

And then this hate transforms fans into certain factions. If you don't dislike the Jackson family, then you're not a true fan. If you can't see that Kat is selling out her grandkids, you're either blind or just plain stupid. Or if you just even like the family, not even support them necessarily, you're a family apologist or somehow worship them. I mean, for example, I happen to like Jermaine as an artist and I respect that he's Mike's brother. I don't agree with every single thing he's done or said, but that's him. He don't even know I exist. I don't have time to be worried about stuff like that. But then you read that MJJC interview they did with him and I'm suprised he just didn't blow up in their faces. What's with this sense of entitlement? Do we really have a right to go to our beloved, dear Michael's own blood brother and bluntly assert that, "It was perfectly clear Michael didn't want to work with any of you anymore, so why were you forcing him to?" or, my personal favorite, "Why were you taken aback by Michael not naming his brothers, sisters and father in his Will? Was it because he took care of the family in life that you believed naturally he would do the same in case of death?"

WTF????????

I mean, by all means, ask him about "Word to the Badd" or whatever. But asking him about his dead brother's will? And why he was "taken aback"? I just... Mad

On one hand, I see how the lines can be crossed in some regards. Jermaine and LaToya both wrote books about their brother and personal things about them and him. I understand that. I, and this is just my own opinion, really don't enjoy the multitude of books -family or not - about Mike being published after his death. Nothing personal against Jermaine or LaToya, as I admit, I haven't read their books and for all I know, they could be wonderful and great and respectful in every regard (and I've heard and read that they are actually really good and delightful books). It's just not always been...sort of my thing. I kind of think personal should be kept personal (especially about certain things because I wonder if they are violating the deceased's privacy or wishes). However, I respect that they certainly have a right to write about their life and, yes, their brother. They are their own people and can do as they please. And I totally understand that they are famous themselves and that the personal/public complexity regarding the Jackson family is, at the least, skewed to begin with. And hey, that's how the world works. People were doing the same thing when the man was alive. (Again, I stress - no personal thing against Toya and Jermaine. I believe they have their hearts in the right place for the most part. Not so much concerning the Cascios...but again, that's a different matter. Cool )

But (some) fans, I think, are taking their own personal convictions about the family and being just plain rude and demeaning. Even if you think they (the fam) have somehow been disrespectful to Mike over whatever reason or through whatever means, how does that give you the right to be disrespectful toward them? You don't have to like 'em. But if you don't, then don't. DON'T ask him condescending questions about his brother's will. Don't get all supreme and act like you can take better care of Mike's kids than their own grandmother can. That's delusional.

And what is with this whole new thing where we (the fans) actually think we own any rights to his children? Like...I don't understand. There's this superior attitude going around that because we supposedly love Michael so much (and his family supposedly don't and, by some fan's take, "never have") that we know what's right for them, or we know what Michael would have done. Last time I checked....Michael ain't have a wife or partner or co-parent. Michael Jackson never knew us individually. I know there's always going to be that whole "what would Michael have done" thing, that's natural. But some fans aren't discussing that. They are saying they know...they KNOW what Michael would have wanted. I mean, wth? Do you know how to contact the deceased or something? Fill me in, please. (I would even get to this whole thing about how the fans say that the family should have "saved" Michael and what not. But that's another discussion and it gets into all sorts of things.)

So...yeah. Haha! What do you all think? Have we fans (well, some of us) gone too far? Do you think we have a right to question some things and people, even his family, outright? I mean, I would think the Jackson family know how to handle these sort of things. It's been their whole lives. I keep thinking about Mike and I sit back and wonder just how in the hell he handled all the craziness happening around him. That life is....crazy. I'm simply writing about it and feeling somewhat chaotic about it all. But I'm digressing.

Just wondering what you all think of this (if you've managed to actually read through that whole rant. Haha!)
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:14 am

Yes yes yes to ALL of this!

Oh my God, so I know some of you follow my tumblr and you're well aware of how many times I bitch about this topic, but the sad thing is that everything Dana has outlined here is a reality at the moment in the MJ fandom.

I have seen the following things being written on MJ forums:

1. That Paris is apparently showing too much skin, and by "this rate" she'll be posting topless photos of herself next year.

2. That Paris should shut her mouth and she's bringing down her father's legacy (re: the alleged "tape" of her saying that Hold My Hand wasn't Michael's voice, which was proven to be fake anyway)

3. Katherine is apparently unfit as a guardian - wait for this - and some people in the MJ community actually CALLED Social Security services and tried to get the kids taken away from her. FACT.

4. Nobody in the family is fit to take care of the kids, they're all bad influences and for some reason the kids belong with DEBBIE who they don't even know as a family friend, let alone a Mother.

5. That Prince is fat and needs to lose weight

6. Blanket is apparently crying in every photo because of his "home life"

7. Jermaine is a basket case who lies about everything and anything, including knowing his own brother

And let's not forget that God awful "interview" MJJC gave with Jermaine. I have to give props to the guy, he answered some damn invasive questions with tact and class even though he shouldn't have.

Dana, I am completely with you; how on earth as fans can we expect to "own" a part of Michael and even claim that we knew him better than his own family? I'm all for a bit of constructive criticism when it's needed, but things are going WAY too far with all these insults being flung around.

Do you guys remember a couple of months back when MJJC attacked Taj on twitter and basically accused him of living off his Uncle and not taking care of his cousins? This kind of stuff is not cool and it makes my blood boil.

Ugh!

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Michelle

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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:22 am

^ Exactly! I think they've actually gone too far. I commend Jermaine as well. I don't know if I'd have the patience (or decency) to answer all of those questions the way he did. No matter if you dislike Jermaine, that gives you no right to blatantly insult the guy outright. And yes, I consider asking him about his dead brother's will insulting and ridiculous. If that were any one else, would you dare speak of such things? The questions could have even been written and addressed differently. They were negative and presuming for the most part.

That man lost his brother. We didn't. No matter how much we loved him as one or not. That might sound harsh. But it's reality. Lord knows I LOVE me some Michael Jackson, okay?! Haha! That man has a whole continent in my heart, I assure you. But I am willing to put money on top of money that his MOTHER, FATHER, CHILDREN, SISTERS, BROTHERS and other family love him like no other. Period. Yeah, even Joe....no matter how crazy and backwards that dude is. Wink

It is one thing to discuss/criticize their actions and words. It's an altogether different thing to call social services on a family that you, in all reality, DON'T EVEN KNOW. It's one thing to have an opinion about the way AEG handled things or the Murray trial or why one family member did this or said that. It's an altogether different thing to try to actually insert yourself into the situation...as if it included you in the first place. And fans should not accuse other fans of not being "fan" enough if they don't join in on the group-think mentality that seems to be dominating the boards right now. We can all have our opinion and discuss the matter. Why alienate those who think differently than you by resulting to insults and "out-fanning" them?

And you know, I hate to say it, but....sometimes I think fans worship Michael far too much. I know that's dangerous territory right there, but some fans have this attitude that if it ain't Mike, it ain't right. I saw a post where Paris was taking a picture with her uncles and fans were saying, "Oh! That should be Michael she should be taking a picture with! They were never in her life before!! They never cared to be! Now they're just going to make her out of a cash-cow like they did Michael!"

Let me just challenge this thought for a second: Have you ever - just once - considered that the reason that her uncles weren't in her life before, was because...I don't know...maybe Michael made it that way?

And I'm NOT saying that's the case. I'm not saying that absolutely without a doubt happened. My point is, why is everything considered bad the fault of the family's and Michael, naturally, never has/had anything to do with it? And how do fans KNOW that her uncles were "never in her life before"? How do the fans absolutely know the reason behind every.single.thing?

We are more than willing to excuse Michael of certain behaviors. We are more than willing to dismiss those who are his detractors. And I may get heat for this but...people were leaping to Mike's defense when he held Blanket out of a hotel window, for example. But Paris takes a picture with her uncles and satan himself is going to get ahold of that little girl. Ugh. Okay. I'm getting all riled up. Haha! And I'm sorry...I just, I can't stand how hypocritical and mean some fans are getting. It's like everything is just all wrong since Mike died. I hate that it happened too. But what happened to us? Are we perserving his legacy by acting like this? Really? We're an "army of love" right? Cause...calling social services is kinda like an army of...love. And stuff.

And those things you posted Rhea...Prince is fat? (Shameful) Blanket's crying? (Never seen that.) And Debbie should rescue them from all the "evil"? Do they realize they are questioning their beloved Michael's judgement here? He didn't leave them to Debbie. And we may all have an opinion about that, but guess what...shocker! It may not be the right one! And really...it ain't none of our business anyways. Agree or disagree with them all you want. You have the right to say so. But don't go all delusional on me and actually think you have an actual say or that your word is law because you "love" Michael more than me and know ALL about him. Stop it. Please. I beg you.
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:14 am

Dana I want to reply to your post more thoroughly, but I just took another look through the Q and A thread with Jermaine on MJJC again and my blood is BOILING. I'm going to post some direct quotes by people who apparently think they know everything about what the Jacksons went through:

Quote :
“Of course Katherine failed her children. She has always been a passive participant. Poor Michael, thought she was a saint”

Quote :
“I do understand the constraints on Katherine back then. What is NOT understandable, as much, is the LYING as an adult. By her, and by Jermaine, LaToya, etc. If they would speak out, that might help OTHER people in difficult situations. But, they don’t. There is no ambiguity at all about varying family “perceptions” about a child being stripped and beaten, and thrown against a wall. That IS abuse. If one experienced it, or witnessed it, it is STILL abuse. Some things have a lot of shades of gray in terms of “perceptions.” This is not one of them.”

Quote :
“A mother’s true instant is to protect her child at all cost and standing by year after year yelling STOP without removing the child from danger is more than failure it’s complete enabling of the abuser in carrying out his/her crime. After the boys started making money Katherine was no longer an economic situation where she had to watch her children being brutalized. I’m sure since Motown didn’t like Joe anyway they would have helped her escape and if not she should have thought of another way. I hate the double standard here. If Michael had been a girl being sexually abused by her father with Katherine’s knowledge KJ’s simply yelling STOP would be considered criminal but because Michael was beaten within an inch of his life on a regular bases Katherine’s passiveness is considered acceptable? Understandable??? NO!”

Quote :
“There’s no doubt that Joseph was a domineering and authoritative figure, but Katherine had no problem causing him an injury that required stitches and threatening to leave when he slapped her face once. He never hit her again. Obviously seeing her children getting beaten didn’t bring about such a reaction from Katherine. If it did, the beatings wouldn’t have been so severe or recurring as they were.


ETA: To state my point more clearly, Katherine is equally responsible for the abuse. It’s pointless to make excuses for her by saying she was a submissive housewife, somewhat abused herself and with little control when she stood up to him successfully over a single slap.”

I am done. I am done with this so called "official" fan community. What the hell happened to us since Michael passed?

This is just disgusting and that was only the last TWO pages of that thread. If I go back into any further I just know it'll get worse.
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:25 am

Just wanted to say: I love you guys!!!

I love this thread, thanks, you are sooooo ..... wonderful bad fans!
I'll come back soon to join the discussion!
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:12 pm

Just a quick update, I made the mistake of posting a reply in that thread on MJJC and I got told that I was apparently wrong for "glossing over" things and refusing to see the "truth".

I feel physically sick after reading people's replies in that thread. They have no shame, no shame what so ever.
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:59 pm

Oh my god, as always, in totaly agreeance with everything that's been said!

I'm surprised to think that people think this harshly of his family. To be honest, I've never seen people be 'mean' about Katherine though. Most likely because Michael worshipped his Mother, and they would never dare question Michael's judgement.

But I get riled up about people's comments about the brothers/sisters (although to be fair, it tends to only be LaToya who gets ribbed). People saying that the brothers, along with Joe, dug Michael's grave is just...WHAT. I cant even find the words. People say that years of emotional abuse along with professional jealousy (on their part), basically meant Michael would never be happy in his life.

Comments along the lines of 'How dare they say such a thing about Michael?" and 'They are only thinking of themselves' and 'They didnt deserve him as a brother' make my blood boil because of some fans plain ignorance to the whole family situation.

Um, this is his family you're talking about. Can none of them say a word about their brother who they knew for 50 years. Knew. In person. Spent their whole lives with him (not necessarily all the time, but you know what I mean). But of course, no one ever may say a single thing about Michael unless it's glowing with fairly lights.

And this isnt some cheap, 'looking for a buck' family (cough*Cascio's*). This is Michael's own flesh and blood. If anyone has a right to bitch about him, they DO. They were as close as what you could get.

I totally agree with you, Dana, on the issue of fans worshipping Michael too much. Dont get me wrong, I love him. LOVE HIM. But do I think the man was a saint? No way in HELL. I sometimes feel like he could have committed murder and it would somehow be waived (by the fan community). There seems to be a reluctance to place anything purely on his shoulders alone. I feel like he made some shitty decisions in his life and I'd be the first one to point them out. When fans reference him as an 'angel' or 'a gift from god', I actually get angry. Yes, he did a tremendous amount of good in the world. Yes, he dedicated himself to making the world a better place.

But is he some sort of Christ like figure who couldnt put a foot wrong?

No.

These days, there is a self-richeousness among fans (and dare I say it, the older the fan, the worst it becomes....I'll just say, this is in NO way directed to any older fans that I know we have on this forum). How long you've been alive seems to determine your 'right' to comment on Michael and dish out various judgements on those around him. Including his family.

I'm sorry, but it's disgusting that Jermaine had to even consider asking ANY questions about his brother's will but then again, some have the mentality that this is 'their right' to ask since they are representing Michael. And this is what he would have wanted. He clearly didnt want his brothers as part of his will, hence he will leave them out. I think fans read wayyyyy too much into scenarios (Diana Ross for one, but that's a whole other thread!) and his rock relationship with his family is one of them.

Ugghhh, so pissed right now! I'm sure I'll come back and think of more!

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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:43 am

Absolutely to everything you girls posted! And that's what I mean Rhea. You try to post your opinion, bring in another perspective of things and you get insulted, ignored, or told what you should think. This is the reason why I've resorted to just browsing boards instead of actively posting on them. And Gemma, girl, it is sooo frustrating, isn't it! I'm really surprise by the hateful language used toward Katherine. I'm sorry, but I think Michael would loathe any fan (anyone, for that matter) who speaks of his mother the way I've seen some fans speak of her. It's digusting. Katherine is a good woman doing the best she can. Michael gave his children to her (and they are absolutely fine!) There is NO need to talk about her like that. Not one good reason.

Those comments that Rhea posted about his Mother and the abuse that went on. Okay, first - I REALLY hope that these girls realize that they, themselves, were never there to witness any of what they are talking about. I understand they've read the books, watched the interviews, and have heard Michael's side of things. But I really hope that they realize that it is unreal to make an absolute assertion about something they never witnessed or were a part of. But something tells me that they actually believe they were there so... Maybe these fanfictions are really getting into their heads? Neutral I don't know.

Secondly, as a person whose mother experienced growing up in a household with six other siblings, a mother, and abusive father, let me just say, it is IGNORANCE to completely and squarely blame that abuse on the woman/mother of the household. That is unfair and ignorant. And leads me to think that they don't understand how abuse works.
Quote :
She has always been a passive participant.

Always? You know this how? Out of the 82 years she's been on this Earth and the, what, twenty plus years you've been here? Passive participant? That's ridiculous. I assure you, my grandmother never considered her behavior as "passively participating" in the abuse given by her husband. A woman, in many cases, can't control those situations with absolute authority. They are also possessed by fear in many cases. Fear that is very real.
Quote :
Poor Michael, thought she was a saint
Poor. Again, he's the perfect lamb isn't he. Thought. Questioning Mike's love for his own mom. Nice. I know I'm being sacrastic, but to imply that we have superior judgement over a man and his own mother is ridiculous. Michael is not a victim of his mother. To suggest that she victimized him in that way is perplexing and demeaning, really.
Quote :
I do understand the constraints on Katherine back then. What is NOT understandable, as much, is the LYING as an adult. By her, and by Jermaine, LaToya, etc. If they would speak out, that might help OTHER people in difficult situations. But, they don’t. There is no ambiguity at all about varying family “perceptions” about a child being stripped and beaten, and thrown against a wall. That IS abuse. If one experienced it, or witnessed it, it is STILL abuse. Some things have a lot of shades of gray in terms of “perceptions.” This is not one of them.”
You understand the constraints. What are those exactly? Lying? What does she have to lie about? When did she lie? Who determines that? No ambiguity. There is. Some siblings saw it as abuse. Some saw it as discipline. Remember, honey, you're only repeating what you've heard. You didn't see anything. You yourself said, "If one experienced it, or witnessed it". It's okay to have an opinion, but understand that it is not law. And you certainly can't blame Katherine for everything.
Quote :
“There’s no doubt that Joseph was a domineering and authoritative figure, but Katherine had no problem causing him an injury that required stitches and threatening to leave when he slapped her face once. He never hit her again. Obviously seeing her children getting beaten didn’t bring about such a reaction from Katherine. If it did, the beatings wouldn’t have been so severe or recurring as they were.
ETA: To state my point more clearly, Katherine is equally responsible for the abuse. It’s pointless to make excuses for her by saying she was a submissive housewife, somewhat abused herself and with little control when she stood up to him successfully over a single slap.”
I dont even know where to start here. Nothing is "obvious". You can't just say the beatings "wouldn't have been so severe or recurring". You don't know that. My grandmother called police and fought back and the abuse continued. You can't hold her "equally responsible." She didn't abuse her kids. And it is NOT an EXCUSE to say she was "someone being abused herself."

Do I believe Joseph was abusive toward the family at times, yes. I don't commend his behavior at all. Believe me. But it is very possible that maybe Katherine didn't consider everything Joe did as abuse. I'm not giving Joe a pass, as I think some of his behaviors were abusive. But people must look at all the pieces here. I have been told that many men (especially black American men during this particular time in history, for many reasons) didn't consider their actions "abuse". They really did think that it was discipline. Now, that doesn't stop it from being abuse, certainly. But in their minds, it wasn't. I really think that although Joe could be a dog at times, he didn't think he was abusing his children by THAT definition. No excuse, simply a perspective. And I could be wrong.

It's also very easy to say what people should have done. But life doesn't work that way and you can't hold people to absolutes. If no one ever questioned the Arvizo's or Chandler's and held steadfastly to their stories alone - what would that be like for Michael?For people that speak so strongly against believing in everything you read or hear, they aren't acting accordingly when it comes to anyone else other than Michael Jackson.

And Michael, bless his soul, was a human. We shouldn't consider him a little perfect lamb. They speak of making no excuses for everyone else, but have a million and one to give Michael when things aren't so perfect. And fans do read too much into scenarios. It is NOT our right to push around Michael's brother over a will. If they want him to shut up about it because he wasn't listed in it - maybe they should shut up about it too - cause Mike didn't leave us a cut of the pie either.

And lastly, we don't "represent" Michael - his children do. We aren't his family.


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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:18 pm

I agree with what you all have said.....

I wish I could leave a long comment, but I am stopping by while I am at work...

I too started to read that interview with Jermaine..but got disgusted with some of the questions!!

For Christ's sake...this family lost a son...a brother....a father.......It is the past....to me it seems just another way to hurt the family...aren't they hurting enough...come on people we all have skeletons in our own closets...however, we are lucky enough not to have the media....advertising it!.

Fan or no Fan...I believe Katherine is doing a wonderful job with the kids...
They seem happy and well adjusted...she is giving them space to grow and find their own...

Was she passive when the boys were young...yes! but is was a different time..and in most African American homes...this was common.place.... People tend to close their eyes to such things....She said it herself in the Oprah interview...Was it right no...but she did what she thought was best...for her children..

I have to go...I will try and leave more later!
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:06 pm



Still my beating heart. OMG, are ya'all in my head????!!! ALL of this is exactly what I was talking about in my post in the other thread about other forums going kind of nutty. I browse them every once in a while but ugh, it's just too much b.s. In all the years I've lurked I've never ever made a post in ANY forum until I started posting in Rhea's story over at comj. Otherwise, what you see here are the only posts I've ever made, lol. And it's not that I don't want to share my thoughts/opinions but why should I when I see the people I agree with getting "ambushed" (and banned) for having rational and logical input? For trying to have a conversation and add another dimension to it?

okay, in all serious though. I could have literally quoted every single thing all of you have said because I agree SO much with it. It infuriates me that fans are so self-righteous and have these huge chips on their shoulders. The insults and all around bullying is just Shocked

I'm honestly almost ashamed to be a part of this 'fan community' and most of the time don't consider myself to be a part of this so called 'MJ family'. Making degrading/hurtful comments about Mike, his family, and his children just goes too far. I'm all for having an opinion/discussing and wondering why this brother/parent did/said that? But I don't actually know these people so who am I to be calling them 'fake' or 'users' or 'moochers' or 'liars'. I mean, agree to disagree while being respectful towards the other person. I don't always agree with someone but can see the validation of why they think or feel a certain way. I'd appreciate other's to do the same for me.

but nope, it's their way or the highway. I hate that 'standard' forum concept where you aren't suppose to question anything and all's 'PERFECT' in Mikey land because Mike was "PERFECT".

ugh, and not to mention I think some fans blow the littlest things out of proportion! Like omg...Jermaine said something mean about Michael's nose in 1976 and it made Michael sad. BOO Jermaine, now we hate you forever you freaking jealous twat!!!

what even is that??? all the things about the kids appearances' fit right in with that. do the fan's not realize how hypocritical they are being? Prince is fat/paris dresses slutty..but lets be mad about Mike being picked on for his nose. yeah, makes sense. Rolling Eyes

and jfkdaljdl...OMG, I read that questionnaire thing from MJJC w/ Jermaine. While reading it I literally had to re-read some of those questions because I was all like "noooo, that can't be right...they wouldn't." It made me sick to my stomach and I applaud him for answering with so much dignity and poise. I would have been pissed. But no, they took full advantage and tried to humiliate and put him down. All in the name of being 'a fan and having Michael's best interests at heart'. pshh, whatever. They'll be lucky to ever get another chance to interview anyone again after pulling that stunt.

Also I got to agree with you Michelle on the stuff about abuse and perspective. I think the whole topic of this is a sensitive one and people's opinion on it sort of fascinate me. But as you pointed out, not even the brother's agreed on it which goes to show how perspective plays into it. And who are we to tell them how they each experienced their childhoods? Not to mention the time frame it happened for them makes the waters even more murky, along with where and how they grew up. Abuse today is a lot different than it was back then. It doesn't excuse it, but it does explain. Hell, I had an extremely abusive childhood, but even when I was a kid in the early 80s it was just considered 'discipline', but I know damn well I was an abused child despite what is said. A lot of people don't even know the intricacies of a situation and weren't apart of it so who makes them the judge and/or executioner? Who gave the fans the right to 'hate' Mikes parents for doing the only thing they knew how to do at the time? They have no one to answer to but their own children and I've think they've answered in their own way. And in the end Michael even understood where they were coming from by what he said in his 'oxford' speech. Doesn't mean he agreed with it or condones it, but there was some insight there that he understood.

so yeah, I'm all but ranting now, lol. I just always get this dreadful feeling that the fans are making things worse than they should be. I also sometimes wonder if it wasn't the fans that forced Michael to make some hard decisions in his life and forced him into this tiny bubble that he didn't want to be in. I mean, I know he very much appreciated his fans, but come on. You know damn well he was all like "would ya'all knock it off!!!" sometimes, lol. I mean, the phrase 'those crazy michael jackson fans' didn't just pop up out of nowhere. There is actually some legitimacy to it. The fact there are still fans out there spreading this 'angel' or 'saintly' image of him that makes him out to be a man who didn't want a relationship, didn't swear, didn't drink, didn't get mad, didn't have sex.. just proves it. They like that image of him only enjoying water balloon fights and eating candy and never growing up into a 'real' man. Some fans just don't want him to be real or human. Perhaps it's safer for them to think of him this way, but it wasn't the totality of who he was I don't think. He was far too complex to be put in such a little box.

oh goodness...did I go off-topic a little? not sure. but yeah, I'm in general just exhausted of all of it to be truthful. It makes me wonder how many fans have been driven out of the fan community because of all of it. There are a lot of people that I miss seeing in the community that have just up and disappeared over the years. It's sad. I've even found myself wondering if I just should delete all my accounts and quietly disappear along with them, reverting back to the time when I kept my love of Mike to myself.

so um yeah, I love you guys and love reading all your input. You all are so articulate and sometimes make me think about different views that I don't always consider or haven't the eloquence to put into words. And I always appreciate the way you all respond with respect and understanding. ♥️
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:54 am

I agree with you mjj4everinourhearts. I think it's all really frustrating and sad.

omertas wrote:

I mean, agree to disagree while being respectful towards the other person. I don't always agree with someone but can see the validation of why they think or feel a certain way. I'd appreciate other's to do the same for me.
I also thought about deleting some of my accounts too. Those were the moments where I just became so exasperated with the whole deal. And I knew that if I did post my opinion, I'd immediately be taken to task about it.

Quote :
ugh, and not to mention I think some fans blow the littlest things out of proportion! Like omg...Jermaine said something mean about Michael's nose in 1976 and it made Michael sad. BOO Jermaine, now we hate you forever you freaking jealous twat!!!
That's the funny (read: ridiculous) thing about some MJ fans! They preach the gospel when it comes to Michael, but refuse to apply it to anyone else.

Quote :
Also I got to agree with you Michelle on the stuff about abuse and perspective. I think the whole topic of this is a sensitive one and people's opinion on it sort of fascinate me. But as you pointed out, not even the brother's agreed on it which goes to show how perspective plays into it. And who are we to tell them how they each experienced their childhoods? Not to mention the time frame it happened for them makes the waters even more murky, along with where and how they grew up. Abuse today is a lot different than it was back then. It doesn't excuse it, but it does explain.
I agree! And I don't want to say that I know what abuse is or isn't, or anything like that. I just don't understand how fans can't get their heads around the possiblity that there are other perspectives over the matter. And that just limiting ourselves to Michael's view of it isn't the all out reality. Why can't we discuss (like adults) the other opinions? Or just talk about abuse/discipline without shaming each other, period? Even if you do feel Joseph was abusive (which, in my eyes, he was) there are still many other factors to consider and discuss. We don't have to continually demonize someone ad nauseum and let that be the end it.

(Some) fans fall into always wanting a villian to point their fingers at when it comes to Michael. This has been one of the things that really turns me off when it comes to the fandom. I'm sure other fandoms have this same thing going on, but with MJ it seems to reach a zenith. There's always an excuse for something wrong. There's always a villian in every situation. Maybe it's the remaining aggression we all have/feel regarding the unfair treatment against Michael during the child abuse allegations (and "unfair" is a grave understatement). It created that Michael Jackson vs. the world concept. Maybe some fans have really latched on to that idea. Surely, we understand that Michael was the victim in that scenario, without doubt. But I'm afraid we carried that same "victim" role into other areas? To where whatever else happened in his life, it was never Michael's fault, which just fed even more into the perfect and saintly Michael picture (???) I'm just wondering here. Neutral

Quote :
Hell, I had an extremely abusive childhood, but even when I was a kid in the early 80s it was just considered 'discipline', but I know damn well I was an abused child despite what is said. A lot of people don't even know the intricacies of a situation and weren't apart of it so who makes them the judge and/or executioner? Who gave the fans the right to 'hate' Mikes parents for doing the only thing they knew how to do at the time? They have no one to answer to but their own children and I've think they've answered in their own way. And in the end Michael even understood where they were coming from by what he said in his 'oxford' speech. Doesn't mean he agreed with it or condones it, but there was some insight there that he understood.
I think fans have purposely blocked this out of their minds. A beautiful speech, by the way. One of the most sincere and unique perspectives we really get from Michael outside of his music.

Quote :
I just always get this dreadful feeling that the fans are making things worse than they should be. I also sometimes wonder if it wasn't the fans that forced Michael to make some hard decisions in his life and forced him into this tiny bubble that he didn't want to be in. I mean, I know he very much appreciated his fans, but come on. You know damn well he was all like "would ya'all knock it off!!!" sometimes, lol. I mean, the phrase 'those crazy michael jackson fans' didn't just pop up out of nowhere. There is actually some legitimacy to it. The fact there are still fans out there spreading this 'angel' or 'saintly' image of him that makes him out to be a man who didn't want a relationship, didn't swear, didn't drink, didn't get mad, didn't have sex.. just proves it. They like that image of him only enjoying water balloon fights and eating candy and never growing up into a 'real' man. Some fans just don't want him to be real or human. Perhaps it's safer for them to think of him this way, but it wasn't the totality of who he was I don't think. He was far too complex to be put in such a little box.
This is really good to point out! I think this is what I was trying to say earlier but couldn't really articulate. The (over) idolization. Not letting him be a person with faults or just... have the basic feelings of a human being. Not letting him be "a man".

Oooh, that makes me think of something else! Haha! I'm sure I'd get killed saying it on other boards, but - how much do you think Michael himself played into this image? I often see Michael as this very human and very complex man who is just like everyone else...but who often (by his own actions and because of his celebrity) also chose to play into that childlike image to his advantage at times. He did have a childlike quality to him. I do believe he was sincere in his beliefs. And I also know that the circumstances of his life were severly unique and that he had to play with the cards dealt to him. But I also think Michael was an extremely smart (albeit, naive and yes I'd say an overly stubborn) man. Question .....okay, I'm going into other territories now! Haha! Sorry. But anyone get what I mean? MJ represents this very fine line between man and idol. I think fans skew this line more often than not. And I think, at times, Michael did too...

Not bashing the main man, here! Haha! Just wondering. He has to be one of the most fascinating people ever.

I really like the discussion here - from all of you! I'm just glad that there is a place where I can say what I'm actually thinking and hear different opinions (which is pretty sad to say, come to think of it).
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:17 am

I know I keep saying that I'm going to reply to everything, but certain things just keep jumping out at me and I have to say something quick, haha!

Quote :
how much do you think Michael himself played into this image? I often see Michael as this very human and very complex man who is just like everyone else...but who often (by his own actions and because of his celebrity) also chose to play into that childlike image to his advantage at times.

THIS THIS THIS.

I've been trying to say this for SO long on other forums, but people instantly take it as an insult and fly with it. On MaximumJackson which was my "home" forum, we did have a bit of discussion about that theory, but honestly it was before Michael passed and before all of this madness started with the over-worshipping, so it had a bit of a different flavour to it.

Which just quickly brings me to another point - has anybody noticed that a lot of this family-bashing, Michael-worshipping started post-death? I did notice it in small doses before 2009, but NOTHING on the scale it is now. Is it because the fandom has exploded in numbers, more people coming in who weren't here before and weren't aware of how the fandom operated pre-2009? Or have people's emotions gone haywire because of the case and what happened surrounding Michael's death?

This ties into your other point Dana; people want someone to blame, especially over Michael's passing. I feel fans point the finger at the family because that was the easiest to do after Murray, which didn't have much effect because the guy couldn't care less about the whole ordeal. To me, it seems that fans point the finger at the family because they get an almost immediate and direct reaction to it from people like Taj and Jermaine. It's satisfying, it full fills something in them in a sick sort of way. It's like a bully looking for a new target, except this time they've struck gold.
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:23 am

joanwas_quizzical wrote:

Which just quickly brings me to another point - has anybody noticed that a lot of this family-bashing, Michael-worshipping started post-death? I did notice it in small doses before 2009, but NOTHING on the scale it is now. Is it because the fandom has exploded in numbers, more people coming in who weren't here before and weren't aware of how the fandom operated pre-2009? Or have people's emotions gone haywire because of the case and what happened surrounding Michael's death?

This ties into your other point Dana; people want someone to blame, especially over Michael's passing. I feel fans point the finger at the family because that was the easiest to do after Murray, which didn't have much effect because the guy couldn't care less about the whole ordeal. To me, it seems that fans point the finger at the family because they get an almost immediate and direct reaction to it from people like Taj and Jermaine. It's satisfying, it full fills something in them in a sick sort of way. It's like a bully looking for a new target, except this time they've struck gold.

All this, Rhea, I agree with. I do think there's a more than great possiblity that fans have chosen to blame the family as a whole, after Murray. Exactly as you've said. It does seem to fill the void. But it's miserable to me that some fans have chosen to fill that void with anger. Murray doesn't accept any fault and that could definitely fuel the anger that's already there. He isn't a satisfying enough villian.

Man, this is all just jacked up.

There's a lot to be said for "blame" and unnatural deaths, period. I guess it's natural to want to correct (read: assign blame to) something that went so terribly wrong in the first place. However, it doesn't excuse the behavior we've seen from some fans. The logic behind some of their assertions continue to just fail me.

I've never understood why it's so difficult to discuss all parts of Michael's life with the diehard fans - even the most truly controversial stuff. They perceive it as bashing or insults, but it truly doesn't have to be. Some topics may be uncomfortable or sensitive, but they can all be broached with respect (if you get the right people, I guess). We all love the guy - why would we purposely seek out to insult him?
It's interesting. I find myself always having better discussions with people who aren't Michael fans (other than you guys, of course I love you ). I don't have to skirt around the issues. Yes, there's those that don't like him (and I usually just avoid them if they get all "third-grade" on me, haha!). But I've met a few people that are open-minded enough to just...talk it out. And I often find that these people are more open to discussing information about him that they never knew or thought about before.

I think this idea of Michael playing into that "persona" may actually be another topic for the Sensitive/Controversial thread ( Question ) But I will say here, like we've addressed: Michael was an imperfect human. He, himself, said that he was neither an "angel" nor "devil". For some reason, some fans can't wrap their heads around the concept. Just like the man/idol thing. They make him too much out of the idol and not enough of the man.
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:06 am

Dana, you should definitely go ahead and make a topic on Mike's "personas"! That's a fabulous idea, and something which I'd really love to talk to you guys about. I just know you've got some great views on it that need to be shared! <3

I agree with everything you've said btw, it really IS jacked up that fans have gotten to this point of playing the "blame game" with the family. I mean they had the audacity to ask Jermaine those personal questions, and then COMPLAIN because he was "too vague" or he was "lying". No I'm sorry, he wasn't "lying" he just wasn't saying what you wanted to hear LOL! I swear to God, I want to slap some fans for having the balls to say crap like that.

Remember how I was talking about this thread on MJJC to do with Katherine and abuse? I got "infractions" against my name for saying what I did (basically defending her and saying that MJJC was laughing stock, which it is LOL) and a lot of hate, but one girl sent me this message:

Quote :
Thanks for trying in that thread. You can tell who talks with the eyes of society at women as the 'faulty one', who has unprocessed rage and who has been there and knows that this situation is not black or white. Most people don't seem to get that everyone in a family is a victim.

There were a number of abuser survivers who absolutely cannot stomach that commentary.

The thread is actually a pretty good mirror of most of the myths and blaming that society has to domestic violence and abuse in general and and how it mostly views women. People don't seem to understand that it is exactly these attitudes of hostility toward women that make it even harder for women to get out of these situations- and then she gets even more hatred. Very sad.

As long as one person speaks up in that atmosphere of lit torches, that's good. They are definitely not speaking in my name and I know they are not speaking in your name either.
Peace.

And it really made my day. There are sane fans out there, they're just hiding!
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:27 am

I think there is just an overall reluctance to place blame on Michael for ANYTHING.

Whether you're talking about his drug dependence, or marriages to Lisa or Debbie, or his death...In some fans eyes, none of it was his fault. There is a need to point the finger at someone, and more often than not, it's anyone EXCEPT Michael.

And I'm not comparing Murray with his family here, but there was almost this horrendous movement around the death trial in terms of how he should be punished. Did I want him to go to prison for life? Yes. Do I write a detailed post of how I want him to be raped, beat and killed in prison? No. I think that's disgusting and despicable that people could say that of anyone. Some even brought his children into it, which I'm appalled at. But then of course, you have to deal with the whole "Well, was Murray thinking of Michael's kids?"

Ughhh..

Pretty sure Murray didnt want to deliberately harm Michael's kids, but hey -- you're right, of course! We must seek out to kill anyone and everyone who hurt Michael, and in turn, kill all their friends and family also!

(A deliberate exaggeration but it feels like that sometimes).

I think there is a silent competition in Michael's fan community (and any fan community, really, but it's particularly prevalent with his) in terms of who is the biggest Michael fan. If you say anything remotely negative about him, you obviously arent a true fan and are disqualified. You must always show diehard respect and constantly use the word "angel" and God forbid, you mention that he wasnt perfect, etc etc. If you say anything nice about his brothers, Joseph, Lisa, any of his admirers (ie. Justin Bieber, Chris Brown, Jason Derulo, Neyo, etc) you WILL get slammed.

It's really ridiculous.

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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:30 am

I love this thread...because I agree with you all wholeheartedly..

It is plain and simple...Michael was just a man....made out of flesh and blood like you and me....he made his share of mistakes as we all do...

I am not one for long comments only sometimes...but I l enjoy reading comments....and putting in my two cents! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:24 am

Quote :
Dana, you should definitely go ahead and make a topic on Mike's "personas"! That's a fabulous idea, and something which I'd really love to talk to you guys about. I just know you've got some great views on it that need to be shared! <3
I think I will do this! I'd also love to get all of your views on several other topics too (and there are plenty). Looks like this is the only "safe" place to do it these days. And I love what that fan wrote to back to you. It's just a shame that so many fans have to quietly express their opinion in a PM. No

Quote :
And I'm not comparing Murray with his family here, but there was almost this horrendous movement around the death trial in terms of how he should be punished. Did I want him to go to prison for life? Yes. Do I write a detailed post of how I want him to be raped, beat and killed in prison? No. I think that's disgusting and despicable that people could say that of anyone.
And that's the thing I don't get about some MJ fans. They provide complete contradictions. They condemn the horrible things others say about Mike...then proceed to do that very thing toward others.

mjj4everinourhearts, I agree with you too. Michael was just a man. People forget that all too often.
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:21 am

I feel that fans have the right to criticize the family's actions (and lord knows there have been a couple) but the GENERAL HATE I've seen directed at The Jacksons is pathetic

Fans are still angry at Jermaine for Word To The Badd and are constantly bringing up....REALLY?! a lot of them weren't even born or hadn't even heard the song until Michael's passing and Michael was still upset about it, he wouldn't have dealt with Jermaine in any way afterwards

or mad at various family members for doing interviews with the Daily Mail or whatever.....have they thought that it was because tabloid stories spread faster? That article a couple of months about Katherine and PPB was in People Magazine and on newsstands but did you hear anyone talk about it? Nope, but Marlon or Tito's interviews in Daily Mail or whatever? Those articles got traction and were talked about.

A lot of fans were dogging Jermaine's book but THAT WAS A GOOD READ! I've seen fans recommending Magic and The Madness, even though JRT only met Michael maybe 2 times LOL

I will say this: Janet's interviews on 20/20 and ESPECIALLY Oprah and talking about Michael's past medication was dumb IMO and not a good decision as many used her words against her and her brother, and in turn making Murray look like a victim in people's eyes (I won't even comment on Tyler Perry joining in and Janet just nodding along.... Rolling Eyes ) I think although the talk about the family's concerns have a place, that was not it and should've at least been in proper context

LaToya makes my head spin and Joe......nevermind lol

So there's a time and a place for criticizing AND reasoning. The Jacksons have a problem with putting things in context or fully explaining themselves so when certain topics come up, I simply shake my head and try to send brain waves through my TV to tell them to hush up Laughing

or the Twitter beef fans had with 3T when Breaking News was released. Taj, Taryll, and TJ's story made sense. Hell, anybody with ears knows the truth

I'm now seeing fans starting to go after Michael's kids. We don't know these kids and folks are acting like they gave these kids birth Suspect

And here's my issue with fans accusing Katherine of being greedy and being an unfit mother: Who raised Michael? And why Debbie or Diana Ross?

Debbie didn't want to be a parent and seems to have no intention of wanting to be one, Diana is a grandmother who is still performing, living her life in her mansions, making money and screwing younger men LOL and if Prince and Paris were to go with Debbie, where does that leave Blanket? Neutral

Has anyone considered the fact that Katherine and other members of the family who have snakes and leeches around them, which is influencing their decisions? Let's just say I know for a fact people are using Katherine the same way they used Michael....some of them are the same people Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:42 am

^ All good points!

jaywonder wrote:

A lot of fans were dogging Jermaine's book but THAT WAS A GOOD READ! I've seen fans recommending Magic and The Madness, even though JRT only met Michael maybe 2 times LOL
Don't get me started on JRT... Evil or Very Mad Ha!

Quote :
I will say this: Janet's interviews on 20/20 and ESPECIALLY Oprah and talking about Michael's past medication was dumb IMO and not a good decision as many used her words against her and her brother, and in turn making Murray look like a victim in people's eyes (I won't even comment on Tyler Perry joining in and Janet just nodding along.... Rolling Eyes ) I think although the talk about the family's concerns have a place, that was not it and should've at least been in proper context

LaToya makes my head spin and Joe......nevermind lol

So there's a time and a place for criticizing AND reasoning. The Jacksons have a problem with putting things in context or fully explaining themselves so when certain topics come up, I simply shake my head and try to send brain waves through my TV to tell them to hush up Laughing

Now this is a good point too! There's been numerous times where I'm like, "Come on ya'll. Get it together." Especially when everybody's talking at the same time and saying twelve different things, particularly after Mike's death. Or speaking on certain matters at seriously the wrong time. That's all fair game for criticism.

Quote :
Has anyone considered the fact that Katherine and other members of the family who have snakes and leeches around them, which is influencing their decisions? Let's just say I know for a fact people are using Katherine the same way they used Michael....some of them are the same people Neutral
I think some fans just hate the Jacksons so much they don't even care. Or aren't even willing to suppose that Katherine (and others) have the leeches around them. They made up their minds when Michael passed (including going as far as blaming them for Mike's death). I'm more than willing to believe there's a bunch of people surrounding Kat and the fam for various reasons.
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun May 27, 2012 4:57 pm

Sorry to leave this topic alone for so long!

I find it's easier to try and look at an overall issue once you've cleared your head and stepped back from the fandom for a little while, which I've had the chance to do over the past month or so. And I've realised a few things that I think I was trying to deny for a while;

- LaToya means well. We all know she has a good heart, that she does love her brother and her family dearly. But I feel that sometimes she's doing more damage than good....particularly when she's been going on about conspiracy theories for the past three years. Now I don't want to be quick to judge her because part of me really does believe there was a giant conspiracy going on (not that he's still alive or anything), and I'm going to kick myself if what she's been saying actually comes out as the truth. But how I feel right now is that she's not getting anybody interested, she's just fueling the wrong people and like I said, perhaps it's doing more damage than anything else to Michael's image.

- Katherine. I think Jay is right; there's some serious leeches around her. And I don't understand how the rest of the family is letting this happen. But you know even as I type this I'm thinking to myself, why the hell is it my business anyway....why do I care so much about this family and what they get up to? It's kind of obsessive and very weird that we feel as fans that we have some sort of input into this family that we don't even know, all because of our devotion to Michael. It's kind of fucked up if you step back and look at it.

I dunno my thoughts are really jumbled 'cause it's kinda late over here and I just remembered this thread and wanted to add more thoughts, haha! Might come back again later....
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun May 27, 2012 10:52 pm

Quote :
But you know even as I type this I'm thinking to myself, why the hell is it my business anyway....why do I care so much about this family and what they get up to? It's kind of obsessive and very weird that we feel as fans that we have some sort of input into this family that we don't even know, all because of our devotion to Michael. It's kind of fucked up if you step back and look at it
I feel the same way too sometimes. The only thing is, the line is sometimes transparent with the Jacksons, mainly because they are a family and a musical family. They're all celebrities too. But still, I think fans get too involved, over-involved. It baffles me when fans act like they know every single thing about what's happening inside the family. Like they know every motivation for everything. Rolling Eyes

LaToya is...LaToya. Haha! I really like LaToya, and I do think she means well. It's just that her...um...technique seems off-base at times. For lack of a better phrase.
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:03 pm

OK so...what in the world is all this new hoopla is about? Suspect I haven't had time to figure this stuff out yet - just saw fans freaking out and mysterious documents concerning Michael's family and the estate.

Is there ever down time in MJ land?

EDIT: Just caught up on the...um..feud or, whatever this "thing" is. And honestly, I still don't have a clue as to what to believe. I get that the siblings are contesting the will, asking Branca and McClain (sp?) to step down. I understand that this has (maybe or maybe not) made Katherine ill - depending on who you listen to. I understand that Paris ain't having none of this - seemingly going head to head with her aunts and uncles.

Ok.

All I know is, this really looks like it sucks. For Michael and everybody. Also, very surprised to see Janet in this fray. Shocked And lastly, if Katherine has suffered a stroke of any kind, that truly saddens my heart and I hope she is doing okay. No
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:45 pm

Guys, I think I'm seriously going to delete my membership from a few of these MJ forums. The amount of BS is getting intolerable.

I know there's a ton going on with Katherine. But I think some fans have taken this to the absolute extreme. The things I've read are insane.
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:09 am

I hear you Dana, how the hell do these fans think they're helping the situation by spewing assumptions about a family none of us even know?
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PostSubject: Re: Fans Vs. Fam   Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:00 am

I'm so confused by what is going on. We've heard that Katherine is missing, Paris is tweeting about it, posting phone numbers to call, and Jermaine is coming in saying everything is fine. I just hope Katherine is okay and that everything is cleared up soon.

I'm shocked to see the amount of people pointing the finger at the siblings (Jermaine especially), saying that they're doing this for money! As if. I'm sick of people blaming the brothers for jealousy towards Michael and they're even saying that Jermaine is "horrible" because he introduced Michael to Thome back in 2008. Oh my god, could you be any more pathetic?!?! But, of course, Jermaine wanted Michael dead so he could take his title for himself... *roll eyes*

Again, another perfect example to raise Michael on a pedestal and treat his family like sh*t. It's embarrassing.

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